The GTM Podcast is out there on any main listing, together with:

Gaurav Agarwal is the COO of ClickUp, the place he’s helped scale the corporate 17x in two years and reduce CAC by 3x—all whereas main throughout advertising and marketing, product, gross sales, and companies. Previously in banking and product roles, Gaurav brings a uncommon systems-oriented mindset to development. He’s identified for connecting the dots throughout GTM, scaling PLG engines, driving incrementality with rigor, and constructing cultures of experimentation, possession, and pace.

Mentioned on this episode

• Why development is extra about programs than advertising and marketing
• How ClickUp scaled 17x whereas decreasing CAC by 3x
• The cultural shifts required to align GTM groups
• Incrementality testing vs. attribution modeling
• Constructing a real gross sales movement on high of PLG
• Enter KPIs as a driver of experimentation pace
• How ClickUp is utilizing AI throughout advertising and marketing and gross sales
• The idea of GTM as demand creation vs. harvesting

Episode Highlights

00:00 — Everyone seems to be doing all of the work—however you’re profitable by probability, not by design

02:01 — Gaurav on seeing development as a programs operate, not simply advertising and marketing

13:33 — Tradition alone delivered roughly half of the three× CAC discount at ClickUp

15:53 — Gaurav defines incrementality testing vs. flawed attribution fashions

29:27 — Setting enter KPIs so squads ship a “win each week” retains momentum excessive

32:53 — AI is being embedded throughout PLG + GTM workflows—from content material briefs to deal alerts

Really useful Books

• Shareholder Letters by Jeff Bezos

Referenced

Visitor Hyperlinks (Gaurav Agarwal):

Host Speaker Hyperlinks (Sophie Buonassisi):

The place to seek out GTMnow (GTMfund’s media model):

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The GTMnow Podcast
The GTMnow Podcast is a weekly podcast that includes interviews with the highest 1% GTM executives, VCs, and founders. Conversations reveal the unshared particulars behind how they’ve grown firms, and the go-to-market methods liable for shaping that development.

GTM 157 Episode Transcript

Sophie Buonassisi (01:57.966)

Gaurav, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, Sophie. Glad to be right here.

Gaurav Agarwal (02:01.966)

Completely tremendous completely happy to have you ever right here and I received to leap off right here with an enormous one since you helped click on up scale 17x in simply two years main development throughout operations together with advertising and marketing product gross sales options and companies and Most individuals nonetheless consider development as a advertising and marketing operate So when did you understand it was truly extra of a programs downside? And what was that largest shift that you simply made because of this?

Yeah, I feel that’s a fantastic query. I truly fell into development by probability. I’ve at all times seen myself as a enterprise man. What do I like to do? I like to construct programs that may generate buyer worth, which may then be captured to generate shareholder worth. So I’ve at all times seen myself as a enterprise man. I left banking. My first job out of school was funding banking. I did that, however then I did product. Then I did buyer improvement. Then I fell into development and the best way in development was very

very, very younger again within the day, like I’m speaking 2013, 2014. So development was simply starting to kind. And the best way we outlined it was do no matter you’ll want to do to win and develop the enterprise. That’s how I received into the expansion world. And it simply occurs that that was an e-commerce firm. So it simply occurs that in an e-commerce {hardware} enterprise, the levers at your disposal are extra digital in nature, like advertising and marketing, acquisition, the funnel, the product, information, of that stuff.

However I’ve at all times seen myself as that. And even at ClickUp, I joined ClickUp because the chief development officer primarily targeted on the self-serve funnel and the self-serve machine. However at present my remit has expanded. And that’s been the case for a few years now. And because the COO, I’m liable for all issues enterprise. After which what are the levers at my disposal? They occur to be one on the digital facet. So self-serve, funnel, acquisition, advertising and marketing, all of that stuff. However then it additionally occurs to be one on the gross sales.

and the human contact facet, which incorporates pre-sales, gross sales, post-sales companies, all of that stuff. However to reply your query, I’ve at all times seen development as a programs operate. Once I say programs, I don’t imply IT programs, however are you able to break down companies into smaller set of programs after which join the dots? So I’ve at all times seen development as a operate that connects the dots and owns enterprise outcomes, after which makes use of all of the levers at your disposal to generate consequence. And individuals who see it as advertising and marketing,

Sophie Buonassisi (04:25.602)

usually simply solely seize a sliver of what nice operators can do.

Completely. yeah, the upside simply continues to extend as you look and develop that throughout the go-to-market movement.

Precisely. That’s, imply, I feel ultimately, just about all companies, like what does a fantastic development operator do or what does a fantastic development operate do? You have a look at the info objectively, you place some bets and also you iterate aggressively, proper? And I feel that’s, and also you establish factors of leverage, not every little thing must be optimized. And I feel these are just about the elemental tenets of working any enterprise.

Okay, I’ve received numerous areas I wish to go down on that time, Gaurav, however take us again to the start earlier than we deep dive on some areas. What did the precise go-to-market engine seem like at ClickUp once you joined?

So after I had joined ClickUp, we had been just about making an attempt to do every little thing. We’re nonetheless making an attempt to do every little thing, however the principle distinction is at that time, these completely different bets, like we had been making an attempt to spin up a channel movement. So what has labored for ClickUp? ClickUp is a product-led development firm. Now we have a really sturdy self-serve development funnel. Half of that’s fueled by natural, the opposite half is fueled by paid media, promoting. Then, in fact, you could have gross sales groups. So after I joined, we had been making an attempt to do every little thing.

Sophie Buonassisi (05:48.408)

We try to construct a channel movement. We try to construct successful workforce. We had simply raised cash and we try to carry a of sturdy leaders in collectively.

The issue was although, regardless that we had been bringing very sturdy personalities and really skilled leaders in, we weren’t connecting them collectively as part of one singular movement. So everybody was making an attempt to do their very own factor on the facet. And the issue with that’s once you try this, you accrue bloat and inefficiency. Your payback goes up. Our paybacks had been extraordinarily dangerous, like nearer to 60, 70 months again within the day. So since then I’ve introduced it all the way down to a spot the place

It’s very corresponding to an environment friendly public firm. It’s very environment friendly. They’ve introduced down paybacks by a number of components. And that has allowed us to construct a fantastic movement that we proceed to construct on high of. However what led us to that? I feel we’re nonetheless doing the identical issues. We’re doing, in reality, extra issues now than what we had been doing earlier than. However the movement beforehand was a PLG and a gross sales movement, however everybody pulling in their very own route.

versus at present the movement remains to be very a lot PLG and gross sales led. So movement is comparable, however they’re all pulling in the identical route, which suggests a significantly better expertise on your buyer, a greater use of assets, higher messaging, all of that stuff. So movement has not fairly modified. I imply, in some ways it has modified as a result of pulling everybody in the identical route will not be simple, however we’ve got matured loads in how we run the enterprise.

Whenever you say pulling in the identical route, how do you truly get individuals to row that boat in the identical route? What are you altering? What levers are you shifting?

Sophie Buonassisi (07:26.094)

I feel numerous it then comes down to love.

When an organization grows actually quick, like ClickUp was, if you find yourself not matured, it’s a little bit bit like Wild Wild West. Everyone seems to be doing no matter they will to work. The issue with that strategy is you’re profitable, however you may’t essentially name out what’s your actual movement underneath the hood. You’re not profitable by design, you’re profitable by probability. As we pull in the identical route, I feel what turns into essential is really understanding, okay, the place does every workforce play within the movement?

So what’s the function of PLG? What’s the function of gross sales dev? What’s the function of sellers? The place does submit gross sales are available? Defining these guardrails that, it’s important to, we’ve got to stay like companies, for instance, can play on this sandbox. So defining these guardrails clearly, setting the boundaries for what a workforce must be doing and what does nice seem like. Setting the boundary, however then additionally setting the expectation of what does nice execution seem like inside that workforce.

And actually, that’s the distinction. You begin pulling them in the identical route as a result of then you definately outline one movement the place you consider not one workforce and every workforce canvassing for their very own codes, however you consider the broader movement collectively. And then you definately sew one buyer journey that’s complete and that’s constant. And that which workforce operates at which a part of the shopper journey, which makes it tremendous thrilling for us as a result of it’s enjoyable. There’s no overlap. There’s no ugly. We used to name this

we name it eight layer cake. In some unspecified time in the future, generally our clients could be touched by 5 or 6 individuals on the similar time. And we’re like, why? So I feel numerous what pulling in similar route means you’re defining clear guardrails, expectations on what it seems like, after which strategically constructing the movement such that it delivers the most effective consequence for the shopper and the enterprise.

Gaurav Agarwal (09:22.626)

That’s unbelievable. To get much more tactical, that is wonderful, what did you do once you entered to really layer that cake? How lengthy does this train take? Who’s concerned? What are you utilizing to whiteboard in the event you’re whiteboarding?

I feel an important factor that I’m very grateful for is you may’t do any of those workout routines in case your management will not be firm first. And that’s one of many hardest issues to do as we’re all people on the finish, proper? All of us have ambitions and I’ve ambitions too. My leaders have ambitions too, nevertheless it’s okay to generally say that.

And we do that so effectively in our firm. We are saying, okay, I, as a person really feel pushed in the direction of this resolution. But when I take a step again and observe what’s occurring as a 3rd occasion, that is what we must be actually doing. So the very first thing you’ll want to do to drive all of those adjustments, construct that tradition of mental honesty and objectivity the place your leaders are capable of acknowledge that we’re all in the end people. However once we get collectively as a workforce, we’re optimizing for the most effective selections for the corporate. Whenever you construct a tradition like that,

When your management works like that, there’s nobody who’s enjoying video games or there’s nobody who’s making an attempt to optimize for a silo. So actually, actually grateful for that. I’ve a really sturdy bench and I’m very happy with that. In order that was the very first thing. After that, if everybody believes in the identical factor, then 50 % of the choices change into apparent. That nobody is making an attempt to canvas for a head depend. Nobody is making an attempt to battle for a ebook of the enterprise. So then you definately have a look at it and also you say, does it make sense? Like simply use our widespread sense.

Does it make sense from a standard sense perspective? 50 % of the noise you may reduce by simply working out of widespread sense and never working out of agendas. And I feel that turns into very clear, particularly in the event you put a bunch of sensible individuals within the room. The rest 50%, I might say, may be very iterative and information pushed. So you’re taking a wager and also you say, what occurs in the event you transfer this workforce from right here to right here? OK, let’s strive it out. Let’s strive it out and see the way it works out. So we place numerous bets like that.

Sophie Buonassisi (11:28.834)

which are run on a quarterly cadence the place we’re continually making an attempt out new issues, we’re optimizing the movement, after which we go from there.

Good. Good. I like that experimentation. Typically we consider experimentation extra throughout the parameters of an current funnel and current division, however you’re virtually transferring the gamers on the chessboard and rearranging the group as an experiment.

And the leaders, all of us get into our room collectively and we determine that collectively. So like, hey, what can we do to make this movement environment friendly? As a result of on the finish of the day, as an organization that’s fairly late, we’re fairly matured, ClickUp is effectively throughout the 9 figures income, we proceed to develop it. We proceed to develop at 40%. So we’re doing nice. However the chess board must develop. Every workforce wants to enhance how they function, which occurs. However when me and my leaders, get collectively, we take into consideration like, what can we transfer?

What chess items can we transfer between ourselves to see, can we make a greater movement? As a result of the reality is, it’s important to meet a sure monetary goal. In some unspecified time in the future, it’s not about optimizing on your personal factor anymore, as a result of the reality is, the scale of the pie is proscribed. Now we have to distribute, there’s a hard and fast price range, and inside this price range, we’ve got to run the enterprise and develop the enterprise. So it’s important to play for the workforce. And that allows us to play chess.

between completely different groups versus simply inside groups.

Gaurav Agarwal (12:53.174)

Proper. You’re in the end one shade. One workforce.

Sure, all of us wish to win collectively. I feel that’s the factor that issues. It’s all the primary workforce.

Completely. That’s the place we cue all of the sports activities analogies.

Yeah, not an enormous sports activities man myself, however I do know numerous my friends are.

Yeah, effectively, let’s get them. So that you’ve reduce CAC by 3x. How did you diagnose what was damaged, rebuild the system? Seems like experimentation is an enormous a part of that, however step-by-step, what does that course of seem like? As a result of proper now, when everybody’s prioritizing effectivity, that’s such an enormous lever that folks wish to pull on.

Sophie Buonassisi (13:33.71)

Yeah, I feel it comes all the way down to, I’ll repeat the reply I stated, however then I’ll give extra shade to it. When you get sensible individuals in a room and also you say play for the workforce, they begin calling out the fats. how do you, everybody is aware of there’s fats inside their groups. How do you construct an setting and a tradition the place individuals volunteer that, there’s some fats sitting proper right here. Let’s sack, let me provide my fats as a result of once we try this collectively, we’re making the machine higher. So

that tradition of mental honesty and possession goes a great distance that will get you midway there since you have a look at any GTM movement that’s bloated. I wager you that folks have had individuals are sandbagging. They’re not pondering by. They need extra. They need extra headcount as a result of it feels comfy. However in the event you set the tradition as one the place we’re going to elevate the bar, particularly on this planet of AI, in the event you’re not elevating the bar and demanding extra, you’re going to lose out ultimately anyway. So then you definately’re simply delaying dying.

So you’re higher off saying, we’ve got to lift the bar, we’ve got to be intellectually trustworthy, we’ve got to play for the workforce. If that is how we function and that is how we maintain one another accountable, routinely waste begins to emerge. That will get you midway there. Actually, was out of the 3X discount we did in GAC, half of it was simply individuals accepting that we’ve got to lift the bar and we’ve got to do issues in another way. In order that’s half of it. The opposite half of it is extremely fascinating.

and I discuss this fairly a bit. A whole lot of operators are enjoying the attribution recreation, which sucks as a result of you are attempting to play the credit score recreation. However right here’s the opposite factor, attribution is a kind of memes the place you may need seen it, like the underside 5%, the highest 5%, and the medium is simply making an attempt to play with attribution to play blame video games. I truly play attribution recreation too. But when achieved effectively,

It may be one of the crucial strongest levers to energy development. And the best way we have a look at issues in ClickUp is you’ll want to perceive what a part of your portfolio is really driving outcomes versus what will not be. And we use the phrase incrementality. Let me provide you with an instance. Let’s say there’s show advertisements is an efficient one. This occurred again within the development advertising and marketing days. Show advertisements would present up on each web site you go to.

Sophie Buonassisi (15:53.346)

They’ll simply retarget the hell out of you. There was a time when in the event you go to any web site, these banner advertisements would observe you. So the attribution recreation would say banner advertisements drove the acquisition as a result of they had been this individual, Sophie noticed these banner advertisements 20 occasions. That’s the idiot’s manner of doing attribution. The smarter manner doing attribution is to run a check. We name it incrementality check the place I’ll present Sophie banner advertisements, however then Gaurav is not going to see any banner advertisements. After which let’s see.

yeah.

Sophie Buonassisi (16:22.434)

Did Sophie purchase extra in comparison with a management which is Gaurav? And what you’ll probably discover is not any banner advertisements had been simply displaying up as a result of they knew the best way to present up in entrance of Sophie. However that doesn’t imply that drove the intent or that construct the will for Sophie to buy. understanding, I’ve a fancy portfolio that spans throughout advertising and marketing channels, self-serve advertising and marketing, B2B advertising and marketing. There are completely different

then there are human assets which are being deployed all over the place, gross sales, et cetera. However you’ll want to perceive what’s the incrementality of every intervention. What a part of my portfolio is driving returns? What a part of my portfolio will not be driving returns? Whenever you function your GTM machine like a portfolio, assume like a monetary companies portfolio, the place like that, okay, these are the bets I’ve made, and these are the bets which are driving return, and return not measured as attribution, however return measured as incrementality. That’s how we received

received to the second half of the 1.5x cap discount occurred as a result of the tradition is nice, elevating the bar, individuals are trustworthy. The opposite 1.5x, we received it by a ton of incrementality testing.

That’s, imply, first unbelievable that you simply received 1.5 X simply by merely altering the tradition. That speaks volumes to what that alignment does and the way that would profit different organizations too. The incrementality is fascinating additionally. I like the analogy round extra of a monetary evaluation and portfolio normally. assume that simplifies it. The great thing about simplicity is it brings it down, it boils it all the way down to that stage.

It does precisely. It makes it quite simple within the sense that you’ll want to know what a part of your portfolio is driving outcomes.

Gaurav Agarwal (18:10.762)

Mm-hmm. And once you ran that incrementality testing, what had been the largest levers or learnings concerned?

In order that’s a very good one, proper? is not going to every little thing. In order a development man, I get this query loads. Yeah. Are you information? Everybody ought to consider me or different operators that discuss information as individuals wanting a really correct, very exact information pushed factor. I truly assume that’s a delusion. Typically even simply having a qualitative information set is nice. Like go speak to clients and say, did you just like the gross sales expertise or not?

And sure, no, sure, no, sure, no. And then you definately’ll be like, yeah, this gross sales expertise that we’re delivering isn’t the good gross sales expertise. So it’s extra essential to be directionally correct with information than totally information pushed. You must be information impressed, in the event you could. Are you able to have a look at the info, attempt to piece the story collectively? And a 70%, 80 % correct story is nice. Top-of-the-line issues that I wish to learn, these are shareholder led.

shareholders’ letters written by Jeff Bezos. And in one of many issues he talks about, are you able to make selections at 70 % decision versus making an attempt to shoot for 100 % accuracy and precision in every little thing that you simply do? So to reply your query round incrementality testing, every little thing seems completely different. For instance, testing for promoting may be very completely different than testing for, say, gross sales dev versus testing for a gross sales intervention. And you may spend numerous hours

I do know individuals, I do know people who find themselves extraordinarily sensible, PhD, they spend hours and hours and weeks and weeks designing the proper check. Worse is typically you say, what, let’s simply go run an imperfect check as a result of we’ll study one thing within the course of. The result isn’t selections. Folks assume the result of testing is resolution. The result of testing is studying. And no matter permits you to study quick, try to be transferring in that route as a result of once you study one thing, there are such a lot of exams we run right here.

Sophie Buonassisi (20:13.634)

the place we cease the exams halfway as a result of we discovered one thing that we didn’t know, then we iterate on it and we ship one other one. As a result of we’re continually, what you wish to construct is a company that’s continually studying. And studying on the high of the funnel may be very completely different than studying how success works, or studying how success may be very completely different than studying how gross sales works. So it’s important to design every of those exams and sit with the ops groups, sit with the management.

However I suppose what I wish to say is even utilizing the phrase design, the check feels just like the mistaken phrase. It’s extra round sit with them and attempt to perceive what’s occurring and what can we not clarify? Okay, nice. Now, how can we perceive that? We will run a check, we will speak to clients, we will look into the info, nevertheless it’s continually making an attempt to study across the corners the place mild bends.

Tremendous fascinating. And I like the emphasis on qualitative as a result of assume firms usually assume as you mature and develop, you lean even heavier into the quantitative facet. And that’s not mistaken. However you simply stress the significance of qualitative even at extra of that scale up stage, which is absolutely fascinating. Additionally an interval that’s decrease, know, a stat sig typical stage could be like 95%.

however that 70 % permits you to in all probability launch faster too.

Nicely, I feel in case you have the posh of working off, like there are many exams that we run which are at 95 % as effectively. And we see that by, however I additionally see lots of people not check as a result of they don’t have sufficient information. And I’m like, you may simply, you may simply rank this in on a 5 level scale, simply try this. Like, after which see what’s working. So it’s about taking an analytical thoughts and looking for a sample. It’s all constructing a enterprise is about constructing a fantastic system.

Gaurav Agarwal (21:50.199)

Yeah.

Sophie Buonassisi (22:07.948)

And in the event you’re constructing a system, want to know the patterns that govern that system. And you would argue that I don’t have stat-sig information and I don’t have one million information factors and I can’t let you know what the sample is. However the fact is sample exists in every little thing. And it’s possible you’ll not know the exactness of that sample, that’s tremendous. However it is best to directionally know what the patterns are. Like I don’t want a ton of knowledge to inform me that when my cat is hungry, she wobbles her head.

That’s only a sample and he or she has achieved that like ten occasions and I do know that that’s what she does when she’s hungry. So I feel it’s it’s constructing that muscle the place you’re continually looking for studying and information and also you’re looking for the sample. If you are able to do it with excessive diploma of precision and information do it. However in the event you can’t then in fact you want you’ll want to do the most effective you’ll want to make the most effective with what you could have.

Sample recognition, development is sample recognition. I keep in mind, I used to really fall on the very quant heavy facet of the camp the place I used to be working experiments at scale and measuring qualitative, however closely skewing quantitative. And after I made a shift to measuring qualitative, I keep in mind simply having such a, such a problem mentally overcoming it. And I chatted with considered one of my associates because the CMO on the time of a sequence eight firm. Now they’ve gone on to lift and he or she stated, Sophie.

sample recognition.

That’s rather well stated.

Gaurav Agarwal (23:29.804)

Now we have a slide in our deck for the board that’s the vibe sample slide. And it’s the place we simply acquire our qualitative suggestions that’s sample recognition, precisely such as you stated. And so now I try this too. It’s the qualitative sample recognition. That’s fascinating.

Yeah, I imply, it’s what you say, like first, once you’re younger, you assume information is every little thing. After which once you develop up, you understand that discovering patterns is an important factor throughout the information you could have, however that’s rather well put.

Completely. Sample recognition. And now take me by extra of the movement. Trigger you had been, you talked about you had been very PLG. You constructed up the SLG. That may be a quite common transition that numerous firms and startups, even scale ups wish to make. that transition from PLG to gross sales help to gross sales led. Take me by what that regarded like on your transition.

Yeah, so even you scale your PLG funnel, proper? Your PLG primarily turns into your high of the funnel. So individuals are signing up on your product. They use your product. And that’s how your high of the funnel will get outlined. After which gross sales is job is to then connect itself to that income machine and maximize LTV. So individuals are available, they join, however then you’ll want to match a few of them will elevate their hand hand raisers as we name it. They’ll go straight to gross sales after which.

a vendor would contact that, we’ll get a few 10x carry in LTV. In order that’s the massive purpose to overlay a gross sales movement on a PLG movement, as a result of there are clients who wish to speak to somebody, particularly in the event that they wish to purchase a much bigger deal. They wish to purchase an enterprise-wide license, so that you want a vendor. However in that case, a vendor is mainly taking a hand raiser. Then the subsequent movement that you simply construct on high of that’s what you would possibly name product-led gross sales, the place you’re continually taking a look at

Sophie Buonassisi (25:23.746)

triggers throughout the product, like what are individuals doing throughout the product? And as an alternative of ready for them to succeed in out to you, you’re continually reaching out to them and producing demand. And that’s what I might name like true gross sales in a PLG movement. It’s nonetheless, and it’s gross sales led since you’re creating development out of product alerts. The following section that we’re within the lively section of nailing, and I feel that’s what numerous PLG firms by no means nail, is how do you then transfer

to a real gross sales outbound movement, the place gross sales isn’t just teethered with the product information, however the vendor can establish what the white house within the account is, who’re the ICPs, and are available excessive and actually make top-down promote. That’s the movement we’re making an attempt to nail proper now. In order of at present, numerous our movement remains to be very a lot PLG heavy and really product-led gross sales heavy. We land in a division, we all know the best way to go huge in that division. We’re very user-focused.

However now we constructing that lens that may be very purchaser targeted, the place our sellers can go promote a top-down deal as they might have achieved in a non-PLG funnel.

Proper, that is sensible. Had been there specific alerts once you received began with that gross sales help movement that you simply discovered had been examine marks and you’d now, I do know you advise numerous firms, advise firms to have a look at these particular alerts first when constructing out a gross sales help emotion?

most essential alerts that we’ve got discovered {that a} gross sales workforce must be operationalizing is absolutely the expansion throughout the workspace or the account. And I’ve heard this validated throughout so many occasions that when a workspace, if it’s a collaborative product, if the utilization goes up disproportionately, or if it’s inviting an increasing number of individuals disproportionately, then that that’s the time to assault a workspace as a result of the workspace is experiencing development and they are going to be open.

Sophie Buonassisi (27:22.584)

to you serving to them out. That’s one. Second, it’s at all times higher to succeed in out to them from a perspective of, might help you obtain extra out of the product versus making an attempt to promote. And in the event you take that second angle, then on this planet of AI the place outbound will be programmatic, you truly wish to attain out to them as many occasions as potential by significant recommendation. That I noticed you had been making an attempt to do that within the product. I consider we might help you do that this fashion as we’ve got this buyer drop in a case examine.

In actual fact, this can be a really fascinating studying.

We discovered that is fairly intuitive now in a world the place price of sending emails isn’t very excessive.

you shouldn’t be making an attempt to rotate an excessive amount of on the alerts. What I imply by that’s check each rattling sign which you could. So many groups spend a lot time scoring each sign and working an information science mannequin and working and so what as an alternative of all of that, why are you making an attempt to choose the 2 alerts out of 10? Simply run a fast experiment on all the ten and see which considered one of these alerts or which considered one of these experiments resulted into pipeline.

After which they picked the one which resulted into pipelines and those that didn’t preserve into pipe outcome into pipeline. They weren’t the appropriate alerts anyway. So try to be extra motion oriented, ship extra, check extra, had been sustained that information science land making an attempt to, making an attempt to foretell every sign as a result of your price of sending an e-mail, the price of outreach is actually zero. And with AI, we’ve got constructed a ton of AI SDRs. have constructed a ton of, no, SDR could be the mistaken phrase. We constructed a ton of AI outreach.

Sophie Buonassisi (29:02.774)

programs that permit us to personalize each sign, each account rather well. So we’re shifting heavy in the direction of analyze much less, throw extra stuff on the market and see what are you able to study from it.

I find it irresistible. Tradition of experimentation. How do you truly instill that tradition of experimentation or pace in individuals too?

Sophie Buonassisi (29:27.726)

I feel a few of it’s you may’t quote somebody on pace in the event that they’re not wired that manner. There are some individuals who simply want extra construction and I feel that’s okay. However then assuming that you simply do have the appropriate individuals, the best way at the very least I attempt to drive that tradition of pace is thru KPIs. My groups, numerous my groups don’t simply have like it’s important to meet this finish purpose.

They’ve exercise as a core KPI as effectively. So for instance, simply at present I used to be in a development product assembly and I stated, I want a win each week. So there are 4 groups in that. had been 4 squads and I stated, every of the squads have to ship one win per week. So then what do you do? You then calculate that if I take 5 photographs at a 20 % success price, I’ll have a win each week. So what God was actually telling us is you’ll want to take 5 photographs on the purpose each week, or it’s important to get actually good at win at bettering your win price. That’s not going to occur.

So what Gaurav is not directly holding us accountable to is can we make 5 bets each week and what do we have to make that occur? So I feel we maintain ourselves accountable to that tradition of pace and velocity by holding ourselves accountable to exercise KPIs or enter KPIs. After which in fact, in case your enter KPIs are nice, your output will go up. However there’s no level making an attempt to carry accountability in the direction of an output KPI and never examine the enter KPI as a result of

rubbish in, rubbish out. So we, I personally obsessed much more concerning the enter KPIs as a result of in the event you put within the onerous work, in the event you put in the appropriate, in the event you’re inspecting the appropriate issues that put in the appropriate effort, consequence will observe.

Gaurav Agarwal (31:12.174)

And that’s truly an identical mannequin now with AI. It’s all about enter, which controls output.

It’s all about enter. It’s all about tremendous tuning AI to your use case, which is all about inputs. What inputs do you give AI? What context do you share with AI? And that’s what would determine who finally ends up profitable as a result of everybody has entry to the identical fashions. However the ones who can provide AI actually related context are those who’re going to win.

How are you utilizing AI in ClickUp? Any particular areas that you simply discovered numerous leverage or incrementality round?

Nice, nice, nice level there. I like the phrase incrementality that you simply simply used. So we use AI fairly closely and we use AI throughout our total PLGTM operate, PLG plus GTM operate as I name it. We even apply it to our EPD facet of the home. I feel numerous that’s as a result of we work in ClickUp. ClickUp on the finish of the day is a piece administration platform the place you may orchestrate work and workflows. And in the event you work inside ClickUp,

Internally, we haven’t rolled this out to our clients but, however we’re within the strategy of rolling it out. AI can intervene at completely different elements of your workflow and aid you do work sooner. So our groups are writing a whole bunch and 1000’s of weblog briefs, website positioning briefs on ClickUp straight. We’re utilizing, in fact, we’re additionally utilizing cutting-edge AI instruments. So like we’re utilizing instruments like Kong, et cetera, for deal inspection. However then we additionally carry a few of that information into ClickUp.

Sophie Buonassisi (32:53.42)

after which click on up all our AI internally consumes that data and tells us that, these are the offers try to be listening to. So we try to automate as many workflows as we will. They occur to be deeper on the advertising and marketing facet, on the content material era facet, on the temporary era facet, however we’re making an attempt to now go into deeper use circumstances, like fixing AI for analytics is likely one of the most essential issues on my thoughts proper now, as a result of then you may join evaluation to era.

and you’ll automate that total workflow. However we use AI fairly closely throughout every little thing. Our sellers use AI for producing first draft emails, account analysis is all AI pushed. So what else can we do? Alerts, with alerts, with alerts ought to we go after with what messaging? All of that’s then utilizing AI. We’re capable of customise and personalize. ClickUp has like 5 completely different ICPs, however 60, 70 use circumstances.

We’re a really horizontal platform, so we use AI closely to personalize messaging throughout every of these use circumstances.

Proper, proper, that’s unbelievable. Good.

Good. Nicely, I’m certain we’ll be seeing enhance too as we proceed to realize unbelievable leverage from AI.

Sophie Buonassisi (34:13.004)

starting, which is starting. I feel we haven’t even scratched the floor as a result of I say that as a result of what I’m monitoring proper now’s what number of of my staff are AI native. And that’s going to change into extraordinarily, extraordinarily essential as a result of have a look at the individuals getting into the workforce proper now. They use AI the identical manner as I keep in mind like individuals utilizing web.

and there have been heaps of people that even struggled with computer systems at that time. So one of the crucial essential battle cries we’ve got is, our workflows are getting automated, et cetera, however everybody must discover a option to 10x themselves utilizing AI. And also you don’t do it simply because ClickUp is asking you to do it, however it’s important to do it if you wish to keep related sooner or later. And it’s not that AI will take your job or one thing, however you’re so sensible. What in the event you can have AI go do 80 % of the work that’s repetitive? So you may then concentrate on

managing all of the completely different brokers and actually maximizing your personal potential. So we haven’t even scratched the floor on that. And that’s one of many enormous battle cries for us is how can we take our groups and make them actually AI native?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I like the saying. hear this, I imply, I hear it many occasions, nevertheless it’s that AI isn’t changing your self. It’s changing those who aren’t utilizing AI. Precisely. That’s an enormous distinction. How are you incentivizing individuals to really undertake AI? After which extra importantly, and what I’m actually focused on, and everyone listening is focused on, we’ve been swapping numerous notes offline off the podcast about it’s how are you…

sharing these learnings of everyone’s particular person experimentations with AI.

Sophie Buonassisi (35:59.586)

We’re very public about everybody utilizing AI. So we’ve got discussion groups the place individuals are speaking about what are they making an attempt. Folks ask for assist. So I feel there’s a group led movement happening the place individuals throughout the firm are simply instructing one another the best way to use AI. And I feel that’s essentially the most natural option to go as a result of ultimately in the end, it’s like typewriters to computer systems. Everybody must learn to use computer systems or desktop to laptops. Everybody will get on the web. So every time a wave like that occurs, individuals get used to it.

Simply that those who get used to it sooner are those who seize much more worth than those who keep behind and take ceaselessly to get there. And we’re placing in some incentive constructions in place, et cetera. There’s teaching, there’s studying, all these issues. However we additionally perceive that it’s like going to the fitness center. There’s no quantity of incentive you can provide me that can say, go do that. When you actually wish to do that, you’ll do that. In any other case you received’t. And what we’re specializing in is how can we take the 5 to 10 % people who find themselves actively constructing?

and put them within the middle so their magic mud can rub off towards different individuals they usually begin constructing as effectively. However I feel that’s the best way to go. It’s osmosis. When everybody round you begins doing it, you’ll begin doing it too. And that’s simply how these waves go. We’re making use of numerous top-down mandate and messaging. For instance, each workforce must automate their workflows utilizing AI. Each workforce must give you a hack monthly that they’ve used AI for.

So we’re making use of these top-down strain, however in the end what’s going to drive true utilization goes to be osmosis, the place individuals who have discovered success will discuss it and get the phrase throughout.

That’s the place I really feel just like the pace at which you use is a big profit to you since you are creating that osmosis faster than numerous different organizations. And as such, you’re adopting AI faster, which is providing you with higher incrementality and so forth. So all of it trickles down out of your tradition that you simply’ve constructed.

Sophie Buonassisi (38:01.038)

Yeah, the tradition of pace and tradition of possession and accepting that we’ve got to lift the bar. I feel that’s one of the crucial essential issues. Like in the event you don’t elevate the bar, you’re doing a disservice to your individuals.

That’s an effective way of placing it. And also you’re constructing some unbelievable tradition, but in addition unbelievable programs at ClickUp. What’s one system that you simply’ve constructed that different SaaS firms ought to copy?

Sophie Buonassisi (38:31.754)

It’s a fantastic query. I’ll contradict myself that I stated earlier than, however I feel that is essential. That I spoke loads about information, proper? When you go to a development machine, in the event you go to Robinhood, in the event you go to any development machine, that total GTM is run out of a really, it’s virtually like sitting on the buying and selling ground. I used to do this. So I do know what it seems like once you’re buying and selling bonds, once you’re buying and selling advanced devices and you’ve got alerts popping all over the place and that is what you do and that is what you do subsequent.

And that’s what you’ll want to run a extremely efficient enterprise the place you may beat competitors. So it’s achieved rather well in buying and selling. Then some, the most effective of the most effective operators know the best way to construct such data-driven programs inside shopper development. Like Netflix is aware of what present to suggest to you, Sophie, that you’d have a better probability to look at it, proper? We try to that throughout your complete stack, all the best way from what’s the appropriate advert we present, is that this the appropriate individual to indicate an advert?

does a fantastic job.

Sophie Buonassisi (39:30.946)

After they are available, what’s their predicted LTV? Ought to we be spending extra time with them? What’s the subsequent finest intervention? After which what’s the appropriate time for a vendor to succeed in out to them? And when the vendor reaches out, what ought to that messaging be? And the way ought to that account be distributed as soon as that first sale has occurred? Who ought to the account go to? And what can we anticipate from that account? And throughout the account, who ought to we be chatting with? And is the account trending wholesome or not? And will customer support and success be intervening now or ready for

the account is wholesome. So ought to we be enjoying a proactive engagement movement? Or if the account will not be wholesome, ought to we be placing on technical assets on it? So we try to construct this end-to-end data-driven map for our clients throughout every level of their lifecycle that permits us to deploy our assets rather well and be sure that we’re at all times delivering a fantastic buyer expertise throughout every step within the journey.

I find it irresistible. sort of seems like a buyer expertise constellation in a manner the place it’s not linear.

We truly, the code title for that is constellation. As a result of we perceive that our clients are literally constellations. then we’ve got to, we’ve got to love, they’re all at completely different factors of their journey. And we’ll have to make sure that every star will get essentially the most love they will. So the interior challenge for that is we name it non-public constellation, nevertheless it’s as a result of it’s about mapping the universe of your clients after which realizing what to do with every node of that constellation.

Yeah

Gaurav Agarwal (41:00.812)

Very cool. love that. unbelievable. To begin with, perception round one suggestion. I really feel obliged in a manner. I actually wish to double click on on that and ask you a pair extra sample recognition questions, which appears to be a superpower. And also you’ve seen inside different quick rising SaaS firms, along with ClickUp, what are a pair patterns that you simply’ve seen on repeat that extra founders must be copying or taking inspiration from, possibly not copying?

You imply from a enterprise perspective?

From a enterprise perspective, from a metrics perspective, from a go-to-market-motion perspective.

Sophie Buonassisi (41:44.59)

I’ll provide you with one which’s on the individuals facet, however then I’ll additionally consider one thing on the enterprise facet that has stayed in line with me. One onerous lesson that I’ve discovered that I want I may have discovered barely simpler, however I preserve relearning that over and over, you want, there’s one thing that I take advantage of, I name it startup physics. An organization grows, an organization that grows 40, 50 % yearly, each two years, the corporate would double.

Meaning the size of operations, the challenges, the enterprise targets, every little thing would double. Most people don’t have the capability to double their talent set and double their capability to, most people don’t have that development price. So it’s important to push your groups extremely onerous, even when they don’t prefer it, in order for you them to be alongside on this journey with you. So one onerous lesson that I’ve discovered is it’s important to develop your individuals rather more than you assume it’s important to.

and in any other case you lose some individuals behind and you’ll outgrow your individuals. And that’s why numerous firms, they churn out individuals each two years. That occurs on a regular basis at ClickUp. If individuals don’t work out with us, they’re not right here after six months, however the ones are common tenure amongst staff is three plus years, 4 years. However which means we’ve got to extremely push onerous on these individuals which are right here as a result of in any other case they’ll be left behind.

And there’s a purpose why everybody simply churns and burns in a startup machine. Two years is the common lifetime of an worker. So one lesson that I’ve discovered the onerous manner, the metric that it’s important to pay, are you outgrowing your individuals? And if that’s occurring, then be trustworthy about it and assault it. Now on the enterprise facet.

I feel it will sound very intuitive, however there’s solely a lot you may get out of your current buyer base. So we talked about PLG, SLG, all of that stuff. I truly have a look at it barely in another way. I checked out it as demand creation and demand harvesting. You may have an SLG funnel the place gross sales is creating demand, however then harvesting may be occurring by self-serve or you may have a self-serve funnel like a traditional lead gen.

Sophie Buonassisi (43:59.874)

the place leads and calls for are generated by advertising and marketing and gross sales is harvesting like a primarily inbound funnel. Or you may have a gross sales led solely movement the place gross sales is producing demand and likewise harvesting. So there’s all mixtures of stuff potential, however I at all times have a look at demand gen, like what’s producing demand? What’s creating demand and what’s harvesting demand? And the error I’ve seen lots of people make is that they assume they’re each equal, however they’re not. Creating demand is considerably more durable.

amongst individuals who don’t learn about you versus harvesting demand that already exists about you. Once I say harvesting demand, I don’t simply imply it for the class. I imply harvesting demand on your product. So creating demand, creating consciousness on your product is considerably is to my directional sample that I’ve recognized. Creating demand is about 4 to 5 occasions more durable than harvesting demand.

the place the individual is saying that they already need your product and also you’re simply serving to them shut. And wherever potential, don’t consider your funnel as a PLG or SLG or a advertising and marketing and sale. Gross sales break it down into what inside gross sales is creating demand and what inside gross sales is harvesting demand or closing demand, what inside advertising and marketing is creating demand and what inside our development is harvesting demand. After which have a look at your price range allocation. And also you would possibly discover

that you’re treating them the identical and that’s mistaken. The group that’s closing demand must be considerably more practical and environment friendly than the group that’s creating demand. In order that’s a KPI that I don’t see numerous operators or founders watch, nevertheless it’s extraordinarily essential that once you have a look at your machine, income machine, you break it down into creating demand versus harvesting demand and watch these ROI information actually clearly.

Would you break that down into actions, if you’ll? So for instance, a selected exercise inside advertising and marketing after which a selected exercise inside gross sales. Simply pondering what if there’s overlap between the departments? So one division is harvesting in a single space, nevertheless it’s additionally creating demand in one other. Are you truly tagging them accordingly after which shifting price range to that particular initiative?

Sophie Buonassisi (46:22.254)

Precisely. would, I might be tagging not simply particular person exercise, however a bunch of actions after which tag. Is your 100% proper? That’s precisely what’s occurring underneath the hood. There are sellers who’re creating demand. There are sellers who’re harvesting. There’s advertising and marketing that’s doing true prospecting. There’s advertising and marketing that’s simply doing retargeting just like the banner advertisements. You may’t say the banner advert is as efficient as a YouTube advert that planted the seed within the first place.

is similar factor. Like you may’t say an individual receiving an order, a transactional vendor is doing the work that’s as onerous as an individual who’s making an attempt to speak to a champion and get entry to a purchaser and do a much bigger promote and creating demand in that course of. understanding what’s creating demand and understanding what’s harvesting demand is extraordinarily essential. And also you’re proper, you’ll have to really tag it at an exercise stage.

after which use that exercise to determine like, okay, what’s my ROI on this exercise and what’s my ROI on this exercise? And usually if I anticipate, I’ll anticipate like a 4X distinction in that ROI. If closing the demand is say an ROI of 1X, sorry, if creating the demand is ROI of 1X, I might anticipate an ROI of 4X on closing the demand.

Gotcha. Okay. And the place do really feel like…

That’s all anecdotal based mostly on my sample recognition by my profession.

Gaurav Agarwal (47:50.594)

No, it’s unbelievable. imply, you’re getting much more granular than the everyday right here’s a price range for advertising and marketing, right here’s a price range for gross sales allotted accordingly. You’re actually taking a look at what’s truly driving income, irregardless of division. The place do you are feeling like the largest drop is? So for a startup, for instance, after they’re enthusiastic about price range allocation between advertising and marketing and gross sales, what would you advise them to do quite than simply, , drop a bag on both facet of the fence?

I’ll simply ask them, have a look at your movement rigorously and have a look at what’s creating demand and what’s harvesting demand. After which based mostly on that, make the allocation. Really, there’s a 3rd layer in SaaS. You can say, create demand, harvest demand, and retain clients. And try to be paying much less for retaining clients. You’ll, proper? There’s a purpose why sellers receives a commission. Sellers are the heroes of modern-day SaaS, proper? As a result of they’re those who generate demand and shut demand.

You need a considerably greater ROI on retaining clients. You then need lesser ROI on closing demand, and then you definately need a lot lesser ROI on creating demand.

Tremendous useful. Gaurav, this has been extremely tactical, data-driven, incrementality. There’s numerous simply notes I’ve received total from you and that we actually admire the time total. Final query from my finish is, , I’ve heard you speak, I it was on LinkedIn truly, you shared that the best worth actions on your time is one thing that you simply analyze. Sure. You additionally analyze patterns round, so that you’re trying to shift.

decrease leverage duties off your plate. What’s your framework for doing that?

Sophie Buonassisi (49:36.79)

I feel you’ll have to understand that one factor that I see lots of people make mistake round is it’s important to do every little thing your self since you need the best high quality consequence in every little thing. However in the event you take a real programs mindset, what you’ll discover is there are factors of leverage. Not every little thing that simply because you may assault and repair every little thing doesn’t imply try to be the one attacking and fixing every little thing. Try to be the one attacking and fixing issues which have the best ROI for that.

per unit time spent, proper? So one a part of scaling your self can be continually discovering methods the place I’ve to continually have a look at what are the best leverage actions that I must be doing. However high quality needs to be excessive class it doesn’t matter what. However in fact, like I’ve constraints on my time and power. Vitality finally ends up changing into a much bigger constraint than time for executives as a result of there’s solely a lot psychological power you could have left earlier than your high quality of resolution making begins coming down and your thought course of comes down.

So what you’re actually constrained by will not be time. Time is in fact one thing you’re constrained by, however you’re additionally constrained by what number of nice selections are you able to make daily. Meaning your goal operate will not be making an attempt to do every little thing, however guaranteeing that essentially the most quantity of stuff will get achieved. I’ll deal with the excessive leverage stuff, however then I additionally have to go on my Lego blocks to different individuals who have the starvation, the ambition, the standard, and allow them to make some errors if they might. However my job is to educate them and get them,

get them to be higher. However the purpose isn’t to love do every little thing on my own. The purpose is to make sure that every little thing will get achieved with highest high quality on the stuff that issues. And the stuff that’s maybe low leverage, let others study and develop from that. In order that has been extraordinarily useful for me as I’ve tried to scale myself.

I can think about that might be useful additionally with the target of leveling up your staff and serving to with that retention total.

Sophie Buonassisi (51:35.906)

You could give them a playground after which you’ll want to be there as a coach, not simply as somebody who’s judging their exercise, however hey, let me let you know the best way to do it. And that’s how they get higher. And as they get higher, you may go extra to them. Every thing is related and that’s the way you stretch them. That’s the way you elevate the bar that permits you to scale your self and tackle the subsequent demons that you’ll want to slay. However what you’re doing is you’re continually creating this floor the place everyone seems to be studying and rising collectively.

Unimaginable. Nicely, Gaurav, this has been a unbelievable dialog. Actually admire the time. The place can individuals discover you in the event that they wish to observe alongside or get in contact?

I’m on LinkedIn for a search, my first title, final title and ClickUp and I feel you’ll probably discover me. However please do join. You can too e-mail me straight, gauravmyfirstnameatclickup.com. However Sophie, thanks a lot for having me. This was the pleasure and love the truth that you went so deep into a few of these tactical issues. Thanks everybody.

Have a fantastic one. We’ll see you subsequent time.

You too, Sophie.